I need to find it but i have read a few years ago a sociological paper about how criminal organization consolidating and increasing in strength will lead to harder drugs being pushed, more human trafficking and an increase in unauthorized immigrant crime participation. It was about French crime families and how their presence increased in the northern part of the country (mainly Paris) in the late 2000, early 2010s. Basically the best way to reduce violence is to go for the organization and their leaders, and the people profitering.
More than any other country... I'm not too sure about that, there are a lot of countries on this planet. What period are you looking at? I assume relative numbers.
I'm also skeptical about your other claim that it's all linked to people that came to Sweden through refugee programs. Do you have any sources to back up your claims?
Mind linking some of them? I'm in my own information bubble and haven't heard of it. What's common knowledge and obvious to you, isn't for the rest of us.
These are basic facts to anyone who has had any experience with Swedish society for hte last years.
If YOU are claiming that the meteoric rise in violence in Sweden is not related to the insane levels of refugees from the middle east that came during the same period, the burden of proof is on YOU.
NO country has gone through the same level of demographic change, unwanted by the Swedes, mind you.
The Swedish population was never in favor of this politics and explains the meteoric rise of Sverigedemokraterna, a party founded by literal Nazis(Gustaf Ekström, a Waffen-SS volunteer).
Why this happened, can be discussed in eternity. Probably to understand you should read The New Totalitarians.
I have migrated from Sweden and frequently return for work and for family visits. It's still a great country, if you avoid "certain areas". Weird, that these "certain areas" are predominately populated with strangers from a different part of the world who enjoy welfare benefits but either don't want, or can't integrate.
If they are basic facts, then it should be easy to provide evidence, no? Every time anyone asks for evidence, they’re shot down. That’s unhelpful for public discourse.
The same way I don't have to provide "facts" if I make a statement that the sky is blue, I don't need to provide the "facts" if I claim that the massive influx of mostly male immigrants from dysfunctional, clan based societies, is detrimental to society.
It is the person who claims otherwise who must provide the contrarian evidence.
BBC, November 2023, "Spread of gang violence wrecks Sweden's peaceful image". Over 60 gun deaths in 2022 (the record), 140+ explosions in 2023, violence spreading out of the low-income vulnerable areas into quiet suburbs, gang leaders directing from Turkey and Serbia. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67342368
AP (via Euronews), September 2023 — three killed overnight in shootings and a bombing during the Foxtrot gang feud; the rival factions led by a Swedish-Turkish dual national operating from Turkey. https://www.euronews.com/2023/09/28/3-killed-in-shootings-an...
Al Jazeera, September 2023 — Kristersson calling in the military; police estimate of roughly 30,000 people involved with or tied to gang crime; violence spreading from major urban areas to smaller towns.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/29/swedish-pm-seeks-he...
NBC News, September 2023 — same events, plus the framing that the coalition won the 2022 election partly on the promise to stem gang violence.
> Sweden has, more than any other country, faced an astounding and shocking rise of intense violence and organized crime, with shootings in the middle of cities and cafés, all linked to people that were openly accepted through its refugee programs.
You claimed two things that I took issue with:
The rise of intense violence and organized crime is higher than in any other country.
All those crimes are linked to people openly accepted through its refugee programmes.
A student thesis about "The Ripple Effect of Gang Violence" does not back up these claims.
I am well aware that Sweden has had an increase in intense violence and organized crime in recent years, but that is not what you claimed. You were more specific.
You didn't link it because it was an interesting thesis, you linked it to back up your claims when I asked for a source. Which it didn't do. You still need to provide a source for your claims. You can also retract your claims of course, that's fine too.
Sure, pick one of their sources to support your claims. If they already did the job for you it should be very easy.
To reiterate your claims:
> Sweden has, more than any other country, faced an astounding and shocking rise of intense violence and organized crime, with shootings in the middle of cities and cafés, all linked to people that were openly accepted through its refugee programs.
1. Which link proves that Sweden has had a more shocking rise of intense violence and organized crime than all other countries in the world?
2. Which link proves that they are all linked to people that were openly accepted through its refugee programs?
Regarding 1. it would also be interesting to know which time period you are referring to, because that's pretty much a prerequisite for a claim like that.
Sorry but this is a ridiculous request for something that has been so widely reported on over the last two years. You can search for all those news articles if you are interested. For something like this, there is no burden for me to prove anything to you.
>all linked to people that were openly accepted through its refugee programs
Large increase in gang violence yes. But this is a pretty strong and specific claim, I live in Sweden and have not seen this in the news. Some of the gangs part of the gangswars are MC related clubs like Bandidos which seem to be mostly ethnically Swedes, and they've been an issue for decades.
Arguably part of the problem is our emulation of US war on drugs, it failed there and its obviously failing here and allows gangs to have large income. Together with bad integration and prospects for children of immigrants/refugees allows gangs to influence and exploit them to do crime and attacks for them.
You use a very vague language to tie violence in Sweden to immigrants.
Then you link a study without really going much about how the study supports your claims, as if that is evidence of what you suggest.
You are gesturing to one thing - "there's a study on gang violence in Sweden" - and presenting it as evidence of another thing - "immigrants are to blame for gang violence".
So I decided to engage with it and read the damn thing; I suppose you did not (or if you did you are hypocritically linking it hoping no one else does:
> One of the most consistent findings in research on societal responses to a
collective threat is the tendency for the majority population to seek culpability, often by
attributing blame to an outgroup perceived to be associated with the perpetrators (Frey,
2022; Ramirez and Kim, 2024). This process, known as scapegoating, is a psychological
coping mechanism in which individuals displace frustration or anxiety onto an entire
group (Frey, 2022).
3) Brå's register study puts the relative risk of being a crime suspect at 2.5x for the foreign-born and 3.2x for the second generation, with excess risk remaining after controlling for age, sex, income and education
The most dangerous, then, are "Swedish" persons with a migrant background, born and raised in Sweden- I'm not sure how to answer that, but that's really uncomfortable.
4) None of this is a fringe reading. Magdalena Andersson (Social Democrat, then PM) said in 2022 that integration had failed and produced parallel societies feeding the gangs... Kristersen as PM (right wing) said the same thing a year later.. so it has some broad bipartisan agreement.
For non-Swedes, all the links with the domain "bra.se" is the government department for prevention of crime, and as part of that role has been given the objective from the government to collect crime statistic. They provide data, conclusions and advice the government on how to effectively combat crime. They also have direct access to police and court databases in order to achieve their objectives.
They are the official source for crime statistics in Sweden.
Should be noted that for years(decades?) they didn't do any statistics regarding the heritage of criminals because of the taboo, while a massive influx of migrants was coming.
I find it fascinating that people in this thread are arguing against raw government crime statistics and are asking for further evidence of this problem.
The claim made was that all crime is linked to refugees.
We can agree that the 'all' part was just the original commenters own biases, but that 'refugee' part is still unfounded based on your quotes.
Refugees are a small minority of immigrants (historically around 10%, don't know what it is in Sweden). The quotes you cite are about immigrants, and the few nationalities mentioned are Turkey and Serbia: neither is a country where refugees originate (except maybe LGBT people, but I'd be very surprised if Sweden is in the thrall of gay Turks...).
So the assertion about immigrant backgrounds seems to hold, but nothing says it's related to refugees, otherwise the large majority of these criminals would be Afghan, Syrian, Eritrean, etc., which doesn't seem to be the case.
The problem is that those statistics are doing something sensible. There are uncomfortable statistics related to immigrants, and your point #4, the thing about integration not being properly done creating parallel societies is a real problem that can and should be addressed properly.
But that's not what the person I replied to was doing - "all linked to people that were openly accepted through its refugee programs"
No, the study says that a foreign-born person is "2.5x" more likely to be a "crime suspect". That can mean a lot of things (e.g.: how many of them were actually convicted). Also, they are minority. Presuming all of them are convicted, it's still a minority that has about double the odds of being criminals. The logical consequence is that a lot of Swedish people are criminals if there's an explosion of gang violence.
Maybe the problem is the Swedish approach to guns? I live in a country that has a shitton of immigrants and is not seeing this surge of gun violence.
You see, we can discuss this properly without engaging in ethnonationalist bullshit.
We can, but there is always a large amount of people who struggle to articulate their emotions and would prefer to label and condemn- true of basically every “side” on any topic from what I can tell.
This has been especially true in Sweden, and I’ve seen it, the way people talk about migration is: if you talk about it, you are a nazi.
This seems to have taken the sting out of supporting actual Nazi parties (SD)…
So while you and I can debate the facts, the larger trend in society is not due to us as individuals, its how much society permits this dialogue to happen at all before trying to shut it down with bad faith and unreasoned statements.
That's the curse of democracy, and I don't say this as a way to tarnish it. I prefer living in a democracy anyway.
We can't expect everyone to be informed and educated. I perceive most people as being guided by basic emotions - Mostly their fears.
> if you talk about it, you are a nazi.
Part of the problem I perceive on the left was unwillingness, for a long time, to engage with it at all. For a long time in the past decade, and in many ways to this day, the whole immigration discussion was dominated by people that were just annoyed that there's too many brown people walking around nowadays.
And that's how you poison the well of discussion. If you accept immigrants, you should expect people to behave in a certain way. In many ways a visa is a privilege, not a right. But how can you even start this conversation when a mouth breather will come out of his hole branding about claims about all crimes being tied to immigrants?
First, I’m not your buddy, and that kind of condescending language doesn’t really help the discussion. Second, I assumed these issues were common knowledge since the frequent shootings in broad daylight that have rocked Sweden in the last couple of years have been from immigrant gang violence, and I mistakenly assumed everyone was aware of these news reports. But perhaps it’s only most obvious here in Europe.
There are other comments in this thread that are expressing the situation better than I am.
I don't know what an "ethnonationalist" is but it sounds derogatory, and replacing "buddy" with what I assume is an even worse insult is not helping the discourse here.
I do not live in Sweden, but the gang violence and problems reported there are in the news and I read about it frequently. The was the point of my original post, which is that there is a context to this discussion that many probably aren't getting because they have no direct links to the society there. I think some of the other comments in this thread do a better job of underscoring this point than I am.
Some of the other commenters here (from Sweden, it seems) are doing a better job than me at explaining the problem, so I defer to them:
Just have some balls and call him a cunt if you're going to insult him, at least there will be no misunderstanding.
I can't stand these kind of passive aggressive middle-of-the-road insults, you clearly think he's a scumbag, stand by your beliefs instead of speaking like you work in HR.
Pointing out the context for an argument and the many articles and discussions that have taken place on that subject in the news is not the same thing as participating in or taking sides in the discussion. I take offense that you have made this personal.
Yeah, I know the deal. It's the school of "I am just a concerned citizen" and "I am just noticing things". It gets tiresome super fast.
You could have noticed that the nationalities mentioned in the study (as pointed out in other comments, Serbian and Turkish) are not nationalities where refugees typically come from. Those are very specific.
You could also have considered other things - why are other European countries that had large immigration in recent decades are not seeing the surge in crime such as Sweden. Might it have other causes, such as Swedish approach to guns? Other structural issues?
No, you preferred to just claim some outlandish bullshit (all crime is tied to refugees), then get all touchy and snowflaky about being labeled an ethnonationalist.
You want your argument to be taken seriously, then you should think seriously about the shit you are writing and the consequences of it.
I see you have been triggered by this discussion and my apologies if I've contributed to it, but you ascribe qualities to me that are not true and I find your discourse unreasonable.
I will comment on this discussion elsewhere, but wanted to mention your contributions here have been disgraceful: providing a source that does not support your second (bigoted) claim, obviously feeling caught in your lies, and then weaseling out of it by claiming it's common knowledge repeatedly and copy-pasting that answer about other commenters being more eloquent. Flagged.
