> Perhaps he should read Dale Carnegie's book or take a course.

The one about manipulation?

> Far more could be accomplished with nVidia or anyone else if the conversation was professional, civil and with a goal to understand both sides and attempt to find common ground.

Yeah, right. Should I point you to the online petitions made to convince nVidia to open source their drivers? Guess what was their result. Nothing.

Has the community tried to buy the info to at least cover nVidia's cost of compiling and releasing documentation?

Yes, the one about manipulation. It's in the title. Go ahead: read, do the opposite of what he suggests, and see how many people thank you for how "not-Dale Carnegie" you are.

His tone may be sophomoric, but your world view seems overly naive.

Having a civil conversation is good. But results are the objective, not the form of discourse.

In other words, I'd take a crude, blunt emotional reaction, if it were in fact useful, over eloquent pontification that doesn't result in anything.

Furthermore, the irony is that Nvidia is taking a practical approach, whereas it is Linus that is being idealistic, much like your own position.

And some of us prefer humanity, with it's imperfections and emotional content over plastic perfectionism. Your point?

Hmmm. How to explain? OK. Here it goes:

I think you are a a stupid asshole. Fuck you! Your work is stupid. Your ideas are stupid and the choices your made are stupid.

Of course, I don't mean that at all. Not even for a microsecond. Now think about how you would have felt if my reply to your post contained that. And if I meant it.

Would you be inclined to have a conversation with me? Or work with me? Or attempt to find common ground? Or even have a discussion where we could continue to disagree yet still be able to explore each others' mental space?

Probably not. There is no excuse in my book for being a jerk in almost any context. No matter who the person might be or their prior and current accomplishments.

Thing is, Linus says why something sucks. He doesn't swear just for the sake of doing it. I for one prefer real feedback to sugar coating. He's not a jerk for doing this.

This isn't about swearing. This is about respect for your audience and the people you are talking about. There's a huge difference between saying something like:

"Based on what I learned writing Git the people who wrote Subversion --who, at the time, created a great product-- may not have made the best choices"

and what he said (paraphrasing):

"...what you did is stupid and you guys are stupid..."

The first shows respect and consideration for professionals that built a tool that was well-received and used by thousands to great effect. Yes, as things go, a different approach could have been taken. That is always the case with technology.

The second form, which is the approach he took, shows no respect whatsoever for anyone and utter admiration for his own capabilities.

I don't know about you, but you talk to me like that and good luck gaining my engagement in anything of interest to you. It would be over in a microsecond.

So your response to an egomaniac who says "look how awesome my stuff is you guys suck", an admittedly egocentric way of handling things, would be to say "im taking my toys and playing elsewhere since you didn't stroke my ego and protect my super important sensitivities from your ego"? How is that not a flaming pile of hypocrisy?

I think you might taking things a bit too personally, but I understand your point of view and people dealing with you should be more diplomatic.

Well, in this case Optimus is not all that well-received, by the Linux community and by people who thought they were going to get a good gaming experience with an nVidia graphics card, but ended up with Optimus instead. Really, nVidia deserves little respect for its lack of work with Optimus on both Windows and Linux.

When Linus uses profanity, it almost always (and in his case, was) accompanied by content.

The polite version of your impersonation is "I disagree." which is a worthless comment; the polite version of Linus' is more or less exactly what he said, minus the hand gestures. He actually said something while you did not.

Where did I propose that he should simply say "I disagree" and move on? Where is it that I tried to say something and, per your assertion, did not?

Having strong disagreements is part of life at many levels, not just business. Resorting to name-calling and insults when this happens is a formula guaranteed to not get anyone what they ultimately want. Linus is lucky that he is who he is. Anyone else would not be invited to a second talk, ever, for behaving that way. He gets a pass because he is a rock star.

The distinction here is between publicly deriding someone and having a private argument (with yelling, screaming and name-calling if you'd like). In some circles private arguments can get rather heated and might even descend into name-calling and personal attacks. I am not saying that's OK, but if it is going to happen it should be in a private setting. Once you cross the private-public threshold and deride someone (or an entire organization) in a very public way you are ringing a bell that cannot be un-rung. That is not professional behavior. Period.

This has nothing to do with the use of profanity. Under some circumstances profanity can convey a message far more efficiently than half a page full of sentences. That is not the problem.

What you and others might fail to recognize is that the question he was asked and the opportunity he had was golden. It was an opportunity to connect need with request. Rather than telling nVidia to go fuck themselves he could have taken the opportunity to deliver a mutually beneficial message that could actually produce the desired results. Maybe something like this:

"nVidia produces some of the most amazing graphics hardware in the market. While I am not a gamer I understand what they are doing and have come to appreciate the level of performance and features they put into their products. We, unfortunately, have an issue with regards to the way they've chosen to support <chip name> in Linux. I understand why they are choosing that path but would sure love to re-engage in a discussion in order to see if we can find an approach that would bring to Linux what we need from nVidia without causing them undue support issues. It is also important that you, the audience present here and watching this online engage with nVidia and voice your support for an approach that serves Linux well"

That was seat-of-the-pants but the general idea is that you take the opportunity to build a bridge, not set-off a dynamite charge that destroys it. I guarantee you that such an approach would have resulted in far more engagement than telling them "fuck you!" in the best 15-year-old pimple-faced kid style.

I also don't know if those voicing support for the "fuck you!" approach on this thread have much business experience. This is not a put-down, it's just reality. If you are in your early twenties it might feel like the best approach is this in-your-face-and-very-public approach. Give it another ten years and a few more cuts and bruises and your opinion is likely to change.

Perhaps I've been fortunate. I got into a very professional work environment from about nineteen years old and never looked back. I have never --ever-- had to deal with people who treated any other professional in this manner. Disagreements? Yes. Heated debates? Absolutely. Going for visceral ad-hominem attacks? Never. Bad idea.

Don't believe me? Try it and see how far you get. Remember, you don't have the rock-star pass card.

>Where did I propose that he should simply say "I disagree" and move on?

Your example of rude text boiled down to "I disagree", once you stripped the profanity. Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, nVidia doesn't really give a shit about integrating better with Linux and I must say that I, if I were in their position, would not either. Their engineers, more than anyone, fully understand everything Linus could have possibly said. They know the issue inside and out already, and their best option simply isn't the best option for everyone else.

Linus knows this, and didn't waste his breath.

Maybe a greater point here with regards to nVidia is that the engineers are not making the decision to not over-extend the organization to support Linus, management is. What do you think the management discussion looked like when they were made aware of the "fuck you nVidia!" incident? Right. It probably took the form or "fuck you Linus!". And that ends all opportunity to engage in a constructive conversation.

It's not about engineering, it's about business and inter-personal relations. Skills that Linus, from the admittedly narrow sample I've seen, does not seem to have mastered at all.

More like, "Hey look we threw these guys a bone, and they are still whining, they've been saying the same stuff for years, but now one of them was rude, so we can play victim instead of just ignoring them".

Of course, we can keep playing the "pretend there is no context" game if you want...

Do you know what my entire experience with the programming community has been? It has been every single asshole in a mile-radius telling me I am an idiot for some ridiculous reason that serves only to demonstrate how utterly retarded they are and how little they understand about my profession. I've had networking programmers try to tell me I'm writing my graphics engine wrong. It would be comical if it wasn't so incredibly aggravating.

So until other programmers stop being giant assholes, I find the rhetoric surrounding Linus' impoliteness to be ridiculous at best, and hypocritical at worst. Linus is simply doing what is necessary to get brick-headed morons to listen to him.

If that is your entire experience with the programming community you, my friend, landed on the wrong side of town for some reason. I have never had even a small sliver of that experience, and I've worked with hundreds of people.

This is not about not being polite. This is about PUBLICLY deriding people. That's bad manners, to say the least.

Then I have sadly been on the wrong side of town for my entire life, because that is what my experience has been across countless diverse communities.

Yeah, so what? You know this, I know this, even Linus knows this and admits it. But he doesn't do it just to troll someone. If you've pissed him off enough for him to curse at you, there's (almost) always a good reason why he did it.

If you really think he's a fool, you know nothing of the situation. Linus has been working on nVidia support on Linux, so he does know what he's talking about. He has been frustrated by nVidia's lack of cooperation and he got their attention.

Far more could be accomplished with nVidia if they actually worked with the Linux community. "Civility" has nothing to do with it.