I spend about equal time in the USA and split between France, Germany, and The Netherlands.
Personally, I find the service in USA restaurants to be obnoxious, overly fake, and disruptive. I generally only go out to eat in Europe because I prefer a peaceful meal rather than a rushed one with a side of fake friendship.
It will always feel rude to me how in the USA the waiters leave the check at tge table a couple of minutes after they bring your food. What if I want something else later?
It feels as if he/she "finished" with your table and you are SOL if you want anything else.
The places you’ve mentioned are cheaper diners (which I also enjoy) where most people don’t explore the menu and portions are plentiful. Hardly somewhere you’re getting dessert or coffee _after_ a meal.
The biggest barrier to ending tipping in the USA is that restaurants are almost always over staffed there.
The owner wants the maximum ratio of servers to customers possible. In the typical USA system, being paid primarily in tips means the server is highly incentivized to upsell the customer as much as possible and do everything they can to increase the total bill, and therefor increase their tip. Essentially a commissioned sales person but the customer pays the commission.
This is the least efficient way to run a restaurant with regard to staffing.
European restaurants typically use a team service model, which greatly reduces the number of staff needed. Every front of house worker can take orders, make and serve drinks, run food to tables, etc. Instead of checking on the customer every few minutes they rely on the customer to ask if you need something. There is no pressure to run up the bill or clear out quickly in this model.
At least they don’t demand a bunch of extra tips. I’m European (well, Scandinavian, which some Europeans consider European and some don’t) and my rule of thumb is that if I go out I tip 10%.
If the service is extra good I might tip extra.
If the service is very bad (unreasonably slow, or staff forget or mix up the order in a significant way, or they are very rude), I tip 0%. Of course everyone can mess up things a little so it’s not like I immediately tip 0% just because of some minor thing. It has to be properly bad.
Also something I have learned from the Spanish is to always order something small and quick for the table even before we have decided what to eat. Then if it takes 40 minutes before the food comes it doesn’t matter that much compared to when you are starving for food. So this is a very neat trick that helps a lot to have a good experience even at slow places, and something I have started always doing.
I have to ask, why are you tipping 10% before the service is extra good? I'm really against the idea that the company isn't responsible for paying their staff properly.
Setting a baseline of 10% just says to me that the restaurant owners can just pay their staff less. And if the server is having an off day or just didn't meet your particular standards then they're losing money.
It would be a bizarre approach in Scandinavia because the consensus here is that companies must pay their employees a decent baseline salary -- which unions negotiate across the whole sector -- so there's no expectation of a tip by default.
But for much of the rest of the world, it's not a given that working conditions are as good.
I think in the Netherlands the general rule is to tip up to 10% depending how good the service was, unless it was excellent and you go higher. When drinking a couple coffees in a restaurant it is okay to tip with a single Euro for good service, even if that doesn't amount to 10%.
This is despite the unfortunate and rude trend of payment devices now offering a big dickover screen filled with obscene tip suggestions first (25% in a fucking chain fastfood place?), because with the decline of cash the old way of rounding up the bill dies out too.
This. Now you withdraw money at an ATM and it offers you to give a 25% tip.
People who are not used to tips (i.e. foreigners visiting the US) don't necessarily know when they should and when they shouldn't give a tip. When in doubt, should they or should they not tip 20%? The whole concept is just very weird.
Please stop tipping unless the service is very good. Hell, the quality of the service could be reflected in the cost of the food (it is), and you don't need to tip at all.
If there's no service charge added explicitly then that amount is usually directly factored in the cost of the food and redistributed to the service staff. As far as I know there are currently no EU countries where tipping contributes towards salary.
However, contrary to what many might say, tipping has been a part of European culture for a very long time (especially in the UK, Germany and some Slavic countries). You won't offend basically anyone if you don't tip, since it's basically considered an extra thanks for the service, but small tips/round-ups are fairly common[0] and sadly somewhat important in countries with lower minimum wages or heavily seasonal tourism.
*That said*, while I have nothing against tips as a purely voluntary contribution, I'm of the idea that - regardless of traditions and customs - the push to de-normalize compulsory tips is of fundamental importance for establishing (and keeping) decent wages for staff.
[0]: from a few euros, up to 10%. The new 15/20/25% model is purely American and predatory in nature
I'm also Scandinavian (Norwegian), and I never tip when going out.
I can't think of any long-term outcome of a tipping culture that is efficient for the workers and employers, even if the amount the customer tipped was correlated with quality (the research I've read shows it's got more to do with looks). It is simply more efficient that both parties know what they are agreeing to up front when (1) the worker still has to go to work for 3 months when they resign and (2) the employer has to pay them (and their replacement) full wages during training.
I never tip because if burger with fries costs €15 then we had a fucking legal contract that you'll give me a burger with fries for €15, don't be like "uuuuuuh sir I'm going to ruin your evening by asking you to pay more at the checkout time because reasons".
I tip (live in US) as we are shamed into it, but I find the relationship between the customer and staff subservient and dehumanizing. The service folks must do the dance and check on you every 5 minutes ("Are we doing good here, hon?) while I in turn must come up with a fake smile and a thumbs up. What else am I gonna do? It's all kinds of weird but unlikely to change.
A couple of decades ago I had a waiter run out to the street after me, midtown Manhattan, a sushi/tappas place, sternly inquiring as to why I didn't tip them. I simply forgot, it was very late. I didn't need that.
It should also be said that restaurant staff in Norway make a much better living than in the US, both relative to other Norwegian workers and their US counterparts.
I lived in Swizterland, but never experienced any refund. Some places would reject tips outright when asked or point out that your tip is excessive, but a refund?
One of the biggest cultural differences - for Spain - is that servers are seen as equals, not as a client-provider relationship. This reflects heavily in the language often used - "when you can, bring me X". Just one of the quirks of a low gini coefficient society.
Just yesterday there was a story on HN about Spain's dying villages and a commenter who I assumed was Spanish attributed theow beth rate to income inequality.
Which is it - low gini for talking to a waiter, high gini for starting a fam?
It’s not surprising to anyone that two random Spaniards may disagree on whether a number like this is high or low. That’s because Spaniards don’t all get together to agree on a common position for online posting; and because high/low depends on the context and comparison to other countries.
Spain’s gini coefficient indicates it is much more equal than USA, but not as equal as, say, Denmark.
I don't think it is a fair comparison. The cost of raising a child can still be too high even in a fairly low gini country.
In fact I'd say gini has nothing to do with birth rate. Birth rate declines when parents have confidence that there is a good likelihood their children will survive to adulthood.
It is often easy to forget that just five hundred years ago almost one of two infants born didn't survive into adulthood. Low birth rates are good. Don't let anyone say otherwise.
In my opinion, low birth rates can't be attributed to income, or income inequality. I feel like it's more about optimism, to have kids you have to be optimistic about the future.
I'm saying this based on anecdotal observations from my biased POV, so take this with a grain of salt. There are income differences, but most are inter-city/region differences. I'd say within a specific city or region, it's low gini, but there's a high gini if you compare cross-region. Income and costs in a village in rural Spain are less than half that of a "mid-tier" city, and less than a third or even quarter of that of Barcelona or Madrid
Low Gini compared to the US, but mediocre for a European country (comparable to France, Germany, Italy; significantly worse compared to low-Gini regions like Scandinavia).
If anyone said this about the country that you’re from (based on this attitude, we all know what my guess is) you’d immediately clock how absurd it sounds.
Easily attributed less to Gini coefficient and more to the difference between a Western European approach to hospitality (structured management, technical precision and formal) and a Mediterranean one (warmth, relational connection, informal) as seen in Xenia, islamic tradition, etc
Two clichés to be contrasted with another two: the smiling first-name-terms coffee-shop barista in Hamburg, and the coldly brusque waiter in some Roman caffè storico.
All these generalizations are as slippery as a bar of soap.
Oh, please. This reeks of a anglocentric worldview. Most places are like that. The exception to this rule is the US and franchise/chain restaurants that they have around the world.
And in Paris waiting to be seated a good amount of time is also part of their culture. As an American visiting it was a different experience but an interesting one.
> Instead of checking on the customer every few minutes
This is likely one of the absolute worst features of the US dining system.
So many times I have been sitting in deep conversation with friends or colleagues just for a waiter to claim all attention to ask if we want to have refilled water.
That they can even push themselves to such rude behavior is entirely insane to me.
As an American, I couldn't agree more. The server frequently stopping by to check on things is incredibly disruptive and annoying and I wish they'd just stop.
I'm fine with checking one time early enough in the meal that conversations haven't gone deep yet, but outside of that, I'm perfectly capable of signalling if we need anything.
I agree it's super annoying, but I can say for sure it's not limited to the US. Has also happened to me many times over here in Ireland/the UK. Usually by waiting staff that are a little inexperienced. Of course the people I'm in conversation with at the time are probably relieved to have a break from me rabbiting on...
Korea has an amazing system for getting help. Every table has a little doorbell on it. If you need something, you click the button and a server comes. Otherwise, no one bugs you. I wish that sort of system would take off here.
Seems like poor training and professionalism. Well run establishments typically train staff in silent service for this very reason, to not interrupt guest conversations.
Experienced servers will usually try to 'feel out' a table to understand if they are in a rush, demanding, want to converse, etc. The same behavior that feels rude when you're catching up with old friends is often welcomed by a table that might have limited time to eat or that prefer to have things done without waiting or flagging someone down.
You do realize that it's perfectly acceptable and commonplace to explain your group's preferences to the server upon first being introduced? You're really telling them exactly what would make you happiest while also reducing the effort they need to spend on your group, a mutually beneficial setup.
Of course, incentives may not align in certain scenarios. On a busy night/time or at restaurants that don't have lots of seating, having a table that they can't 'turn over' quickly may be undesirable, especially if purchases (another round of drinks) aren't being made occasionally.
> Nearly 16 million people worked in restaurants last year, representing about 10% of the national workforce, and 62% of operators said recruiting and keeping employees is a real headache. “The reasons for staffing shortages are both cyclical and structural,” Milos Eric, co-founder and general manager of OysterLink, told FI, noting government statistics showed 44,000 hospitality jobs were added in March alone, but 167,000 openings remained unfilled nationwide.
> “The reasons for staffing shortages are both cyclical and structural,” Milos Eric, co-founder and general manager of OysterLink, told FI, noting government statistics showed 44,000 hospitality jobs were added in March alone, but 167,000 openings remained unfilled nationwide. Eric said deportation is compounding the problem, considering government data shows 37% of cooks and 5% of dishwashers are foreign-born.
It seems like the universal standard in my area is that the server plunks down my food dishes and immediately asks if I would like anything else with that. And I don't know about neurotypical patrons, but in my mind it is impossible for me to process whether I will need anything else while the server is standing right there, staring at me and waiting for me to answer. So invariably I am forced to say "no" and then, more often than not, I belatedly discover what it is that my meal also needed, and so I wait to flag them down again (this necessarily involves not picking up utensils and not eating anything, so that they notice there is something amiss.)
I really haven't been smothered by checkups every few minutes. When the servers are really good, they can anticipate when you need something by simply looking at you and your table. They know when your drink is empty and when you want it filled. A server should rarely need to ask that stuff verbally. If they are continually checking up, they are inexperienced or insecure.
After I make my order, the server will usually try and take my menu. Lately I've said "I'd like to hold on to this" and they love when you do that! I don't always follow-up with another order, but sometimes I just need an extra side dish, or a dessert.
I've had that overstaffed experience, too. There are one or two small chains around here that employ 3x as many servers as they need. And their rooms are always 1/5th full or less. So the moment I walk in, there are 3-4 people greeting me and escorting me to a table, before I can even pull off my hat and gloves. In the same place, while they don't appear to do "team service" I would meet one waitress, and then get fobbed off on another guy for no stated reason. If they are sharing tips, a lot of slices to that pie.
No. After you've ordered, it is rare to order anything else. You might ask for a refill of a beverage or something like ketchup, but the waiter is not expecting more ordering.
It's simply expected by diners that their waiter is there and will help with whatever they need. In Europe you'll wait 20 minutes to get the attention of a waiter for salt or ketchup until your food is cold. Also in Europe this will be described not as dead time waiting for a small thing, but as culture. European culture.
So why do waiters in the USA keep pestering me every 5 minutes asking if I need something else? It's part of the culture, and it gets plenty annoying when I'm trying to enjoy a meal but have to stop mid-bite to say "no, thank you" when I'm clearly not in need of anything else.
The feeling I get from those experiences is that I'm being rushed to clear the table, not that the service is great and always there to help me.
> Also Europeans are not, I think, accustomed to asking for salt, or ketchup, on already seasoned food.
I would expect to find salt, pepper and mustard on the table in a decent restaurant, in my corner of Europe. Not ketchup, though, except in a cheap burger place.
You would in the UK but we are a condiments culture. Quite normal to find two kinds of tomato relish, two kinds of mustard, and if the café is satanic, salad cream or piccalilli. But I don’t think I would dream of asking for salt or pepper or ketchup if they were not already on the table.
> Also Europeans are not, I think, accustomed to asking for salt, or ketchup, on already seasoned food.
Not all us Americans are, either. The only time I can remember asking for such things is when the server forgot to provide ketchup for some fries.
If a restaurant doesn't season the food adequately for me, I'm not going to fix it at the table. I'll just factor that in the next time I decide where to eat.
Also, the vast majority of restaurants I've been to use far too much salt during cooking anyway.
It's amazing how much is attributed to culture. What if I like more salt? European are not accustomed to ask for salt. What if the chef forgot to add salt? You'll wait till your food is cold. It's culture.
I don't know about other European countries (well, I know, but I'm polite), but in France, restaurants will always have salt/pepper and frequently oil/vinegar on each table.
For ketchup, I'm afraid you'll need to stay in the US.
Please stop spreading these... untrue statements, you clearly have very little experience with actual European restaurants. Any decent restaurant has salt&pepper available on all tables, if yours was cleaned and not put back just ask waiter politely. You know how to call a waiter, right? Not much more complex than raising hand at primary school.
One thing is true though, I never ever had to add salt in restaurant in past 25 years, one can ask for pepper/olive oil/etc but salt? They often use too much of it to enhance taste ie in sauces. Maybe get your kidneys and heart checked with such refined palate.
So after you ordered the main meal, after you finished it, is it uncommon in the US to order something afterwards? Like coffee, dessert, an ice cream cup?
Most waitstaff attempt to be observant enough to watch their tables for empty plates, approach the table and clear them off, and ask at that moment if they would like to see a dessert menu.
Ah yes the homogenous European culture. Can't say I've ever really experienced this anywhere other than when its obvious a restuarant is slammed. Spain is probably the worst place I've been for service but the standard is still generally very high, you just need to actually get someones attention they're not going to ask if you're ok all the time. Maybe this is a reflection of the standrd of the places you go or how you treat people?
> The owner wants the maximum ratio of servers to customers possible. In the typical USA system, being paid primarily in tips means the server is highly incentivized to upsell the customer as much as possible and do everything they can to increase the total bill, and therefor increase their tip.
I don't think so. The biggest upsell of a US-style tipping culture is that restaurant owners have a no-downside free pass in exploiting workers. They are literally allowed to have people working for them for barely any pay and performing a role aimed at increasing throughput and demand. Therefore there is no incentive whatsoever for a restaurant owner to stop exploiting their staff.
They're not just incentivized to upsell, but also to get you out of the door as quickly as possible so they can get the next customers in. It makes for a much less pleasant dining experience than, say, France where waiters are generally hands-off.
It is kind of a culture shock between France and the US:
- French visiting the US: why is the waiter coming at us, does he want us out?
- American visiting France: what is the waiter waiting for, didn't he notice we are finished?
If France, if the waiter comes after you have finished your meal and asks you if you are done, it is usually a polite way of asking you to leave, usually because the restaurant is about to close. You are supposed to call the waiter when you are done, or, more commonly in casual restaurants, go pay at the cash register.
> USA is that restaurants are almost always over staffed there.
> European restaurants typically use a team service model, which greatly reduces the number of staff needed
100% this.
US restaurants have a "zone" model and always seem to need 3x the staff of European restaurants.
If you went the Euro model, you could have less staff and pay them more per head and therefore not need tipping.
> There is no pressure to run up the bill or clear out quickly in this model.
I think this is more a function of "need to turn over tables at some multiple per night to cover costs" but costs aren't just labor e.g. rent and food are also big line items.
>European restaurants typically use a team service model,
American chain restaurants also use the team model. The server that writes down the order often isn't the same person bringing out the hot plates of food. Maybe less of team than Europe because the waitress taking the order will typically be the same one refilling the drinks.
It's the white tablecloth high-end restaurants where the one waiter is the only person handling all interactions with the table.
What you are describing is not team service because the server "owns" the customer and are the one who will collect the tip from that table.
What you are noticing is that many chains have a "full hands" rule: if any server with free hands walks past a table with dirty dishes on the way to the kitchen, they are expected to pick them up no mater who's section it is. Also, if they are heading out from the kitchen with free hands they are expected to run out some dishes no matter what table they are for.
>the server "owns" the customer and are the one who will collect the tip from that table.
In many USA restaurants, the waitstaff tips are also shared into a pool with the runners, busboys, and kitchen staff. The % may not be equal however.
>What you are noticing is that many chains have a "full hands" rule:
But that contradicts the idea that "USA restaurants almost always over staffed there." The chain restaurant could just "overstaff" with dedicated table runners with no need for a "full hands" rule.
It doesn't seem like USA restaurants are overstaffed nor do owners have the incentive to overstaff. The very common scenario is the hostess seats you at the table and the waiter doesn't even show up for 10 or 20 minutes to take the order. The patrons are frustrated and wondering why it's taking so long. That's a symptom of understaffing where the waiter is handling too many simultaneous tables.
> In many USA restaurants, the waitstaff tips are also shared into a pool
This doesn't change anything because the incentive is still to drive up the bill to drive up the tips. This is caused by the staff being primarily paid in tips.
> The chain restaurant could just "overstaff" with dedicated table runners with no need for a "full hands" rule.
Unlike servers, bussers and runners are generally paid minimum wage or close. Only over staffing servers helps make more income. Over staffing support staff runs up costs.
USA restaurant staffing is widely studied and your personal anecdotes don't change the conclusion: compared to most anywhere else, restaurants in the USA are over staffed with servers.
>Only over staffing servers helps make more income.
There are several gaps in your assertion about USA restaurants being overstaffed with servers.
#1 the mathematical relationship between servers and income is questionable: Servers acting as quasi commissioned salespeople by upselling patrons on "another beer?" or "anyone here want to order desert?" ... can be time-staggered interactions across multiple customers as the server rotates among their assigned tables.
Let's say, a restaurant has 20 tables and initially has 5 servers. Each server rotates among their assigned 4 tables. For a single turnover of 1 set of 20 tables, the diners have been asked(upsell) "Do you want desert?" 20 times. Let's say the owner wants to "overstaff the # servers" to be 1-for-1 and have 20 servers to 20 tables. The # of upsell events is still the same at 20. In what scenarios do overstaffing servers increase restaurant's income? (On the other hand, understaffing servers causes diners to twiddle their thumbs for half an hour after they finished eating because the overbusy server hasn't gotten them the final bill yet which causes less turnover of the tables which leads to less restaurant income.)
It's also not clear why you need tipped servers to upsell. Fast food places like McDonalds have trained minimum wage workers to constantly upsell... "Do you want fries with that? Do you want to upsize that drink?"
#2 the economics equilibrium of what tipped servers want to be paid and whatever staffing levels the restaurant owners want. Trying to overstaff the restaurant means waitstaff notice they don't work as many tables which means their tips (thus total income) is lower. This causes them to quit, which then causes the restaurant to keep trying to hire new waitstaff. Many restaurants chronically run "shorthanded" because of this negative feedback loop. (Which is one of the causes of extra delays between the hostess seating the diners and the time the waiter finally shows up.) Therefore, adding more servers to increase restaurant income isn't going to work.
>USA restaurant staffing is widely studied
The only studies I found analyzed restaurants not being able to hire staff including the servers. No study talked about restaurants having overstaffed servers in the USA as a proven driver of extra income.
EDIT to reply: >In Europe a typical place with 20 tables will have 2-3 servers and no runners. We go from 8-10 floor staff down to 2-3.
Your premise doesn't work for USA because with the hypothetical American restaurant that only has 3 servers with no runners and those 3 all sharing the workload "as a team" for all tables ... still means those 3 servers want to work for tips. That negates your parent post saying the higher # of staff is the barrier to eliminating tipping.
Instead, the barrier to end tipping in the USA is the inertia of the ingrained culture where servers expect tips and patrons keep paying them.
There are several high-profile restaurants in New York City, etc that tried to eliminate tipping by raising prices and they eventually reverted back to traditional tips.
>Hopefully it is clear how 5 servers dedicated to 4 tables each and backed up by runners can do a lot more upselling than 2-3 staff doing team service.
It isn't clear because those same lowered server count of 2-3 can still ask the same upselling questions... "Do you want desert?" Asking that question isn't mathematically constrained by the # of servers. Instead, it's constrained by the # of tables.
> Let's say, a restaurant has 20 tables and initially has 5 servers.
This is already overstaffed and you are doing the math backwards. The place with 5 servers in the USA almost always has runners as well making total floor staff 8-10.
The comparison is not a mythical restaurant with 20 servers for 20 tables. In Europe a typical place with 20 tables will have 2-3 servers and no runners. We go from 8-10 floor staff down to 2-3.
Hopefully it is clear how 5 servers dedicated to 4 tables each and backed up by runners can do a lot more upselling than 2-3 staff doing team service. And they don't need to because their salary isn't dependent on it.
Locking down 1 server to a strict set of 4 tables is very inefficient as well especially when one section is slammed and another is half empty.
You will find plenty of study of tipped wages and restaurant economics but they generally don't use words like "overstaffed" instead they say things like analysis found that owners systematically offload slow day risk to tipped employees.
Turnover in the restaurant industry is brutal. An always overstaffed restaurant where the waitstaff ends up not earning much in tips will quickly lose staff to competitors (at least the good ones).
Also, many Europeans have the "equal work, equal pay" mantra drilled into them. Tip-based salaries are the complete anti-thesis to that. It is obvious that better-looking younger women get more tips than those without those characteristics. It rubs me and many others the wrong way; hence, I never tip because that is always fair. As a customer I 100% prefer "worse" service over having to deal with the tipping BS. Americans don't care and don't think about fairness at all in the same way.
At restaurants at least, most people I know just default tip 20% and only adjust up or down in pretty rare circumstances. Maybe it’s different in other parts of the US or for other generations, but I recall studies supporting that people generally have a set percent they always tip.
You recall wrong. :) The evidence that tipping is inherently unjust is overwhelming: https://freakonomics.com/2008/03/the-racial-tipping-point/ The post about race but the results very obviously apply to other characteristics too. Though I very well understand that most people don't care much for evidence when it contradicts their anecdata.
FWIW it comes off as pretty snarky to provide evidence and then pre-emptively insult the reader by assuming they won’t respond to it, or assume that disagreement will be a result of rejecting evidence in general and not having some more specific objection (e.g., cab vs restaurant tipping culture being different)
As far as I understand this is broken incentive system. Waiter can rarely make restaurant experience better - food is dependent on the kitchen - and it only worse make it worse - bad attitude, spitting in food etc. So from customer PoV, it makes no sense to pay percentage of the good as a compensation for the good. This model works where there is some risk associated - like if you sell a house, or do some legal counselling. But tips as a percentage of the bill makes no sense to me - waiter has no contribution in me ordering steak or salad. The offer, from waiter, to order something cheaper could be more tip-worthy service than alternative. Therefore, compensation as % of turnover should be Restaurant managers' concern and not the customers' problem.
Used to have a lot of American workers here on some projects here, and mind you - these are very travelled and well-versed ones. The contractors that travel around the world for a solid chunk of their careers.
They didn't really mind the the typical service here, where you'll have to wait a bit before a waiter sees you. You get used to it.
On the other hand, you have the first time tourists, that will go "excuuuse meee" after 5 minutes in a restaurant if the waiter hasn't showed up to take a order, and become pissy when they discover that free refills isn't really a thing.
Most Americans traveling abroad are in my experience polite and patient. But there are always the bad apples that will keep tabs on how many times the waiter comes by to offer something, and demand immediate service.
As a European, I expect the waiter to show their face within 5 minutes, at least to ask if we want anything to drink while still determining what to eat.
Japan has a lot of the same things, but no tipping. Although the tradition of "checking in" to see if you need anything seems to not be very prevalent - instead people either press a button or call out for the staff if they need something.
I remember a few American restaurants experimenting with this when I was a kid. I remember the experience being a little inconsistent. I imagine the feedback wasn't particularly good.
> want to be coddled and always want to feel like they are the king of the world. Greeters at Walmart, cashiers not being allowed to sit but have to stand for "respect",
I thought the greeters were an anti-shoplifting technique, "hello someone saw you here" kind of thing.
And putting a seat in the checkout station means they can't be packed quite as closely and also gets in the way when someone else needs to tag in to ring up booze or whatever.
I’ve spent about five weeks in the US split across two trips. At home, I eat out very very regularly, at both very nice and very shabby places, and varied places. I pretty much immediately came to your conclusion… within hours of each visit, if not less. it’s so jarring, and artificial, and tacky. I can’t imagine being so delusional as to have any of this stuff be a positive experience. I hate it. And I’m far from an introvert, but these social interactions are not genuine and they go out of their way to make you feel like you’re superior. I hate it and I think that it says a lot about the US. It’s part of what makes me just have a background feeling of being on edge the entire duration of my visit, in a way that I’ve never felt in other countries, even those that have a much larger cultural difference from my own, and that I should really feel less ‘at home’ in.
LMFAO, have you ever been to a restaurant in Europe? The service is horrific. Sit down and wait 15 minutes for the menus, another 15 to place a drink order, another 10 for the drinks to get there, another 10 to place food order. Now you finish the meal, good luck getting the waiters attention to bring the check. European dining is the worst, every time I am back stateside I feel like im being waited on in the white house or something fancy.
I could say the same about US restaurants. I want to socialise with the people I'm sharing the meal with, not some random waiter. The servers are constantly interrupting, ruining the mood and you feel unwelcome like they want to get you out the door the moment your plate is empty (because that's exactly what they want). It's like being on a conveyor belt.
The waiter comes by about twice in a visit, asks you "Is there anything you need?". You say "No thanks". And you get upset by that. And then you complain about Americans and their terrible ways. What sense does that make? Can't you see how rude you are? The person simply came by to check, since that person is your waiter and the goal is that you have a tasty and pleasant time.
If I need anything, I will call for the waiter. I do find it intrusive and patronizing if they come and check if I need anything. I'm not "upset" about it, but it does make my dining experience worse. It also gives me the impression they are trying to get me to free up the table as soon as possible.
It is very amusing to me that in a different part of this thread people are complaining that the waiter doesn't come by enough, and here the complaint is the opposite.
The critical difference for me is if they ask while you're eating, perhaps 5 minutes after serving your table, that's OK it means they are genuinely interested in improving your experience and it's an opportunity to correct minor problems.
If they ask after you've eaten, that would be rude, from my British perspective.
The after-meal ask is to see if 1) you want dessert or 2) you want your soft drink refilled or to purchase an additional alcoholic beverage. Honestly, I think the "waiters keep pestering me" perception from Europeans is heavily influenced by the refill checks, which by-and-large aren't a thing in Europe.
Once early in the meal, and once to clear dishes and check for any after-meal orders is fine. But the several interruptions between those two is too much. I'm certainly engaged in conversation, and they're just interrupting it for no good reason.
While I very much agree with your sentiment and to be honest I prefer dining in the USA, it’s naive to think (in most cases) that they actually care about anything other than getting you out of the restaurant as soon as possible to work a new party.
Of course, there’s a bit of future optimization where they want you as a repeat customer, but that manifests in pretending they don’t want you out, not actually feeling that way. It makes sense - a rational revenue maximizing business does want you out but they need to pretend they don’t. The veneer is thin in many cases (though it varies by establishment). Personally, I’d prefer the incentives aligned with being a bit more straightforward, down to earth and without fake flattery.
I remember I had a meal once as a group of 5 about 10 years ago at a beachfront restaurant in Boca. At this group size a tip of 18% was added by default. Our waiter had been so cloying and over the top, calling us friends, etc. When the bill came and I didn’t tip anything other than 18% the waiter started shouting from across the room and made physical contact with me because he thought I hadn’t tipped. It was really a horrible experience, but very telling.
I've been in hundreds of not fancy restaurants across Europe in my life, in many countries. The service speed in like 95% of all cases is at maximum or vary close to it. It's between 0 to 1-2 minutes to get menu, then 0 to 1-2 minute to flag a waiter and order, and that all delays possibly induced by the serving staff. The rest is just how long it takes to cook and is not relevant here. So maybe USA shaves off a few tens of seconds of that, and pays for that with tens of dollars per visit plus suffers an annoying questions all the time, while I'm eating. No thanks.
Maybe you guys like your USA service model. Maybe Europeans are mistaken about USA service model. But one thing is certain - you USA guys have zero idea about speed of service on average in European cafes and restaurants, judging by your comments :) .
It’s possible that many of the Americans commenting here have gone to very different restaurants than locals have in mind, and are basing their experiences on a very different sample. Like touristy places with a patio on the main old town square of (insert European city here)
I didn't think of that, probably because when I'm in another country I do my very best to avoid touristy places. I want to experience the country, not the show it puts on for visitors.
Knowing to flag down a waiter is probably a big part of the equation. In the US waiters will generally come on their own to take your order fairly quickly and so we’re less used to flagging them down. And in a lot of places in Europe waiters won’t ask to bring the check, it’s on you to ask for it.
This is literally what the grandparent comment was doing.
> In the typical USA system...
> European restaurants typically...
But the interesting thing is that no one ever complains when people group things by continents like that if the theme is bashing the US and praising Europe. Only when talking bad about Europe it's suddenly an issue.
Yes, the dining experience in California and New York is just so, so different. One waiter might call it pop, the other soda, it's like being on a different planet!
It's wild the extents to which Americans overestimate the cultural differences between their states and literal entire countries with actual differences. Scandinavia and the Mediterranean are quite different, Americans speaking in a different accent and maybe being slightly friendlier or not is nothing.
I live in half Europe for the past 15 years and have been to more restaurants than I can count. Typical service is courteous and efficient. Of course there are outliers, too.
Repeat business is rewarded like in most places. I frequent many cafes and restaurants where I'm recognized and treated like family even though I have never once tipped there.
Not sure which destinations you're eating in, but as someone who lives in "Europe", that's not been a regular occurrence at all. Generally, the waiting times are not so long and service is reasonable. There are of course experiences at both end of the spectrum. I've walked out of a Vienna cafe once because I waited 20 minutes for someone to bring the bill. Three steps out the door the waiter chased me down and I paid the bill. Problem solved. However, I've also been in situations where I us want the wait-staff to bugger off and let me enjoy my meal and conversation in peace. Usually, the service is somewhere in between.
In the Netherlands this has been my experience many times. By the time they finally come to take your order (which is always "what would you like to drink?", requiring me to say "actually I'm ready to order the food as well") - I would have already been eating in many other countries.
The reason I think is a mix of things: firstly people really want to make a night of it, seeing the whole dinner as an experience, and secondly the amount of staff (both waitstaff and in the kitchen) won't support a faster process.
Edit: it's not a case of better or worse, just different expectations going in
Ah much generalisation. Europe is over 40 countries with vast differences in quality of service and restaurant culture. I have been to restaurants in many European countries and the only generalisation I can make is that tip culture does not exist in Europe.
Although in the UK, there is often an "optional" service charge tacked on for table service dining. (Yes, you can get it taken off but I'm guessing most people don't.)
My last trip I gave a $10 tip to a waiter in a Spanish restaurant. I apologized that I didn't have euros. The guy smiled broadly and thanked me. If tip "culture" didn't exist in Europe, he would have thought of me as inappropriate and would have given the money back. Like if you try to give a tip to a firefighter, he'd give it back, because it's not appropriate.
Of course you can tip and nobody would refuse one. The difference is tipping is not expected by default and you get same service regardless of your tip. In contrast many years ago a waiter in a NYC restaurant made my then girlfriend crying when the waiter decided that the tip was not big enough. Is this great American service people here keep raving about?
> a waiter in a NYC restaurant made my then girlfriend crying when the waiter decided that the tip was not big enough
That's certainly not the norm in the US. I've eaten in restaurants in every state and have never seen or experienced anything like that. It sounds like you just got a terrible server or restaurant.
He accepted it because he saw you as an American cash cow.
Obviously you will do as you please, but I wish tourists would try to get with the culture. As a European, one of many reasons I don't tip is that I don't want to encourage a class system where anyone who doesn't pay up is seen (and sees themselves) as stingy.
I have not been in a place in Europe where the tips would be rejected. However, universally they are not the norm or expected.
Also about the $10 - they would need to gather quite a few more dollar notes and spend time finding a cash exchange bureau. Else the note is just a memento of a weird American.
In some EU countries the tips have to be counted as salary and income (+social) tax paid, or even they have to be declared as revenue to the restaurant along with the VAT (19-25%) going straight to the state. Of course, when paid in cash - that rarely happens. The point is that the provision exists in the law (so the tips are not unheard of)
People over the Atlantic just have a better concept of social gathering as opposed to neediness of being served and staffed with food.
People come to a place to have fun and talk for a few hours or their free time. Drinks and food coming and going is just a small nuance. 10 minutes (often way less of course) for drinks to arrive is mostly okay. Nobody is busy waiting for them.
From the restaurant owner's perspective there is no benefit of slow or bad service. That means guests are taking up room without spending money. It makes much better sense to be speedy in giving your guests attention and service, as this gives you more sales, more margin for error, and most importantly much happier guests. They can still focus on the socializing and being merry.
It's just there is a difference between "slow service" and, you know, taking needed time.
Sure, some times it can be slow, at any place or country. But the thing described in the parent comment is just either a hyperbolization (my bet) or some unfortunate coincidence.
Nor should you argue a subjective point as though it’s objective. But if you’re passionate about the subject you should write a blog post or something.
People are used to that concept enough that changing a small item on the menu doesn't require a whole re-print, or sitting for an hour with a bottle of Tip-Ex
If you're upset that you wait then maybe something like McDonald's would be better for you. When you go out to eat, you're also going out to socialize and enjoy your time.
And if you say you're good, you'll get the check (assuming end of meal). If you don't pay it, they'll come back and ask you if you want something else. If you say no, they'll give you a few minutes and come back. They want you to get the fuck out of there as quickly as posible.
In the average place in most European countries (excluding places with a queue outside or highly sought after reservation only places), nobody would bat an eye if you stay talking an hour after you're done.
> In the average place in most European countries (excluding places with a queue outside or highly sought after reservation only places), nobody would bat an eye if you stay talking an hour after you're done.
That's because most European restaurants operate on a single sitting model when it comes to financial planning. Someone coming in later in the evening to fill an already vacated table is a nice and welcome extra income for the restaurant, but that not happening will not cause a financial loss either.
It's actually fairly easy and interesting to design your own z80 computer. I went from knowing about assembly and pcb design to a z80 computer with a serial interface and memory banking. Learnt a lot on the way an went on to build pcbs for other projects with the knowledge I had gained from that.
I got 2 from here, https://smallcomputercentral.com/kits/ and then some additional boards from Tindie to turn it into an MSX. I have not had the chance to build them out yet, but very excited too.
If they had a "here is what I'm currently subscribed to" that might be valuable. Everybody should subscribe to the local news paper - to get local news. Things that matter to them that they won't hear about. (Odds are you the reader do not live in the same city as me and so have no interest in who is on my local school board - but I'm trying to figure out who to vote for and need more information than I can find).
I'd be onboard with supporting a local newspaper -- if they hadn't gone all-in with aligning themselves to a particular political tribe. They're part of the problem Ground News makes obvious to a hilarious degree, where if something happens that doesn't fit the narrative you just will never see it if you only look at their platform. Given that not everyone has a reputable local newspaper I don't know that saying "everybody should" is necessarily sound advice.
Anyway, you can block sources individually in Kagi, that can weed out the most common paywall options you don't have, like Forbes or whatever.
There's still valuable info in your local newspaper even if their agenda is the opposite of yours. You just have to read between the lines and phone their bias.
But the biggest stories in your local community will of course be completely hushed many times.
You assume there is one. My 'local' covers high school sports, road construction, but none of the important issues that I need to care about to be an informed voter.
I need someone to be at the library board meeting, school board meeting, city counsel meeting... Some of these happen at the same time so I can't attend them all even if I didn't have other things not mentioned I'm doing then.
should is the key here. The lack of something to support is reason to not pay. Like you, I lack a good local newspaper. There is the nearby city, but they don't cover the important local news well.
Still I'm on the lookout for if someone ever does start covering local news. I don't need national news, even though that is what is cheap easy to get me. (because I get it from to many other places)
Unless I'm your research assistant, why would I be asking AI questions for you when you could do it yourself? If you need an answer I already have I will gladly share it with you. If you need my help to find an answer, then tell me that and I gladly will help.
Used to travel for work 3 weeks a month and worked with a group of folks who took pride in traveling light. I learned to never pack for more than 6 days. After 5 days either do the laundry or use the hotel laundry service.
Hotel laundry service tends to be quite expensive, but many hotels have a coin-op (or maybe an app these days) laundry room where you can do your own. That's very handy for underwear, socks, and casual items.
And some people for whatever reason think that everything you wear once needs to be washed before you can wear it again. Break out of that mindset. You can usually wear pants and shirts several times if they aren't sweaty and don't have food spills or something like that. Hang them up or fold them at night, maybe touch up with an iron if they are wrinkled.
Coin op washing machines are a pain if you travel internationally because no one can give you enough change. And you never no if the damned thing is actually working until you show up.
> Basically, if you disagree with him about his quack medicine, you're a "pseudo-skeptic" just looking out for Big Pharma's bottom line.
The hallmark of the anti-intellectual is to attack your motivation instead of your evidence. This made it really clear to me that this is not a serious writer.
Wow, I never thought I would see the day that an article promoting something as widely discredited as homeopathy reach the front page. We can do better than this.
Personally, I find the service in USA restaurants to be obnoxious, overly fake, and disruptive. I generally only go out to eat in Europe because I prefer a peaceful meal rather than a rushed one with a side of fake friendship.